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Topic: Heisman Race
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Knoxville Cat
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Member # 2891
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posted 10-21-2007 02:41 PM
Does anybody else completely disagree with Matt Ryan of Boston College being ahead of Woodson right now? Andre has over 100 more passing yards and 9 more TD passes, in the SEC. I would bet that Boston College hasn't played anybody even close to the competition as LSU and Florida or South Carolina and Arkansas on the road. I just disagree with him being atop Woodson.
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Brandon
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posted 10-21-2007 04:11 PM
The ACC isn't exactly a powerhouse conference. The biggest names being Florida State and Miami and then BC. They don't have bad teams in the conference, outside of Duke, but they aren't anywhere near the calibar of the SEC.
I'll tell you who I am impressed with though, outside of Woodson, and that's Ray Rice from Rutgers.
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prophet
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posted 10-21-2007 04:59 PM
IMO the Heisman is Tebow's to lose.
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Brandon
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Member # 108
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posted 10-22-2007 09:29 AM
I'm just the opposite, prophet. I don't think Tebow should even be in the race.
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prophet
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posted 10-22-2007 11:21 AM
While I don't agree with you, Brandon, that Tebow shouldn't be in Heisman competition, I do agree that he shouldn't be the frontrunner but knowing PR (much has to do with his early hype) as I do, UF's likelihood of winning the rest of their games and his "one-man-gang" position, I think, barring an unquestionably bad game, he is the likely winner.
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"The principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale." --Thomas Jefferson
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Knoxville Cat
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Member # 2891
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posted 10-22-2007 04:19 PM
Tebow should be in the heat of the race. Guy is a heck of a football player. My complaint is Boston College's QB having 9 less TD, 2 more Int, and over 100 less passing yards than Andre while playing in a very weak ACC this year with FSU and Miami being down and being ahead of Woodson according to the latest voting on ESPN. Woodson has played much more superior competition and has better numbers. I know it's proabably because BC is undefeated right now, but so what? They haven't played anybody. They will lose eventually and I don't see Ryan being mentioned after that.
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Posts: 218 | From: Knoxville, TN | Registered: Oct 2007
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Brandon
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Member # 108
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posted 10-22-2007 05:11 PM
Yeah, the Heisman is supposed to go to the best player but we all know that most of the time it goes to the most hyped player. Anyone think that Wuerffel was the best player the year he won in 1996? That class had Troy Davis, Jake Plummer, Orlando Pace, and Warrick Dunn. What about when Charles Woodson won over Peyton Manning and Ryan Leaf? Gino Toretta beat out Marshall Faulk and Garrison Hearst.
Actually, part of me doesn't want Andre to win because of the Heisman Curse on NFL players. Only a small handful of players have gone on to have successful careers in the NFL. But, I would like Andre to win for the prestige it would bring to UK. But, having 2 qb in the past 9 years be considered for the Heisman looks good for the school as well.
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Relient
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Member # 2511
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posted 10-22-2007 08:34 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Brandon:
Yeah, the Heisman is supposed to go to the best player but we all know that most of the time it goes to the most hyped player.
I feel the same way. It's hype/team's record/team exposor. I think a lot of the talk about Tebow stems from the fact he plays for Florida. A player with the same stats who plays for a second tier D1 school wouldn't be as heavily considered as Tebow. If Tebow wins he'll be another Jason White: a Heisman winning QB but no NFL career.
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boomdaddy
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Member # 2644
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posted 10-22-2007 09:42 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Knoxville Cat:
Does anybody else completely disagree with Matt Ryan of Boston College being ahead of Woodson right now? Andre has over 100 more passing yards and 9 more TD passes, in the SEC. I would bet that Boston College hasn't played anybody even close to the competition as LSU and Florida or South Carolina and Arkansas on the road. I just disagree with him being atop Woodson.
Imho, a certain RB from Arkansas is the best palayer in college. The Heisman is about who guides their team to win the biggest games against all odds. Sometimes it just has to be the star who guides the top rated team to the title. I could really care less. If I were an NFL team and I needed an impact player, I would go with McFadden, regardless of any Heisman award. Woodsen is one of the top QBs in the nation. Trust me, he is better off not being the top rated QB. The best rated QB always goes to a team with a crappy O line and gets beat to death. I hope that Woodsen is the 3rd rated QB in the draft, goes to a team with a solid O line, and has a great pro career.
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Old Norm
Administrator
Member # 1482
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posted 10-22-2007 10:50 PM
quote:
Originally posted by boomdaddy:
I hope that Woodsen is the 3rd rated QB in the draft, goes to a team with a solid O line, and has a great pro career.
Makes sense to me.
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TheBadLieutenant
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posted 10-23-2007 07:47 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Brandon:
We all know that most of the time it goes to the most hyped player...What about when Charles Woodson won over Peyton Manning and Ryan Leaf?
Did you just use a defensive player winning over Peyton Manning as an example of the more hyped player winning?
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Brandon
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Member # 108
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posted 10-23-2007 10:59 AM
yeah.
Peyton was the real deal. Charles Woodson was all hype. He was a very good defender, make no mistake, but Manning was clearly a much better Football player than Woodson. Proof of that continues in the NFL to date.
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TheBadLieutenant
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posted 10-23-2007 11:11 AM
But you said they vote for the "most hyped" player. Manning was clearly the most hyped player in the country that year. Just because you (correctly) believe that his hype was justified doesnt take away from the fact that he was the face of college football that year. If your statement that they "vote for the most hyped player" is correct, he would have won it that year.
[ 10-23-2007, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: TheBadLieutenant ]
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Brandon
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posted 10-23-2007 12:03 PM
Peyton didn't need hype to make him look better than he actually was. Charles did a lot for his team, Michigan even put him in on offense from time to time and he returned punts. Michigan sent out a massive amount of literature and highlight tapes and keychains and cigarette lighters and all kinds of things to the Heisman voters. UT did so for Peyton as well but not nearly in the same quantities as Michigan.
Now, I said the award goes to the most hyped player most of the time not all of the time. But that year Charles Woodson was mentioned in nearly every sportscenter broadcast, nearly all the college football radio shows, and Peyton was mentioned on the same shows but usually only when the topic was either the Heisman Trophy, The SEC, University of Tennessee or one of the teams they had played, or if a specific question was asked about him. Peyton was the face of college QB's that year.
Now, Woodson beat Peyton by 272 votes and that was with Peyton winning only 1 out of the 6 regions.
In other years, there have been winners that won only 3 regions (Bo Jackson) and won the Award, and Bo won by 45 votes. Woodson 5 out of 6 regions, and Manning finished 3rd in one of those regions (far west) coming in under Ryan Leaf but then that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.
But the Heisman voting numbers are just a snapshot. Woodson had far more publicity generated by his Heisman campaign than Peyton did. More publicity equals more hype. Woodson won the award. It looks pretty cut and dried to me.
[ 10-23-2007, 12:14 PM: Message edited by: Brandon ]
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Knoxville Cat
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Member # 2891
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posted 10-23-2007 12:16 PM
No, actually Michigan won the title in 1997 and Manning lost in the Orange Bowl to Nebraska. That's why the MUCH better football player didn't win and it was a joke. Who is Charles Woodson and what has he done in the pros? Manning is the best QB in the NFL, has won a Super Bowl, will break all the passing records, and will be in the Hall of Fame. Goes to show the Heisman is overrated in my opinion anyways. That is a good point about Woodson not being the 1st QB drafted and the terrible team he would go to if he was. I hope Tebow is the 1st player selected in the draft and gets killed by those violent defensive players the NFL has. It's a whole new level than college, so ole' Tim can get a reality check that he's not Superman.
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Nothing stinks like a Big Orange!
Posts: 218 | From: Knoxville, TN | Registered: Oct 2007
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Knoxville Cat
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Member # 2891
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posted 10-23-2007 12:18 PM
I apologize, I just realized I was wrong in that regard and that the Heisman is actually awarded before the bowl games, which I disagree with as well. Still Michigan was being hyped about being in the Rose Bowl for the title, so the fact he was in the championship game and Peyton wasn't did have something to do with it.
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TheBadLieutenant
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posted 10-23-2007 12:21 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Brandon:
But that year Charles Woodson was mentioned in nearly every sportscenter broadcast, nearly all the college football radio shows, and Peyton was mentioned on the same shows but usually only when the topic was either the Heisman Trophy, The SEC, University of Tennessee or one of the teams they had played, or if a specific question was asked about him.
Not true. He was the face of college football that year and probably outnumbered Woodson 2:1 in references in the national media, especially leading up to the season.
quote:
Originally posted by Brandon:
Woodson had far more publicity generated by his Heisman campaign than Peyton did.
That's a pretty slippery statement. If you are saying Woodson had more publicity that season than Manning, then that is clearly wrong. I think you carefully avoided not saying that directly though.
Woodson beat Manning for one main reason: many voters vote for the best player on the best team, and that was clearly Woodson in his Heisman winning season. Again, if your previous statement that publicity, hype, coverage, national attention or any other media-created factor determined the winner, one of the most lopsided votes in the past twenty years would have been Peyton Manning's victory in his senior season.
[ 10-23-2007, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: TheBadLieutenant ]
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prophet
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posted 10-23-2007 02:01 PM
With certain rare exceptions (especially in early years) the performance and perception of the team of which the Heisman is a player is the determining factor. That's why, barring injuries such as those now being experienced, Tebow/UF is the likely winner. The only other way I see a different scenario is BC running the pre-bowl table, then it's Ryan with "the pose".
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TampaKat
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Member # 2109
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posted 10-23-2007 05:12 PM
Knoxville you and I got off on the wrong foot with the whole Tebow Woodson arguement, and I said Woodson would be a dud but in reality I think he is a very good QB, I just don't think he is as dominant in the college game as Tebow has been, but I hope you really don't want Tebow to get hurt as you state!!!!! No one deserves injury and the guy is a good guy, I don't think Tebow fans would say I hope Woodson gets sacked 40 times his rookie year and tears his ACL, Tebow is not saying he is Superman the media is, just my two cents on that!
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Brandon
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Member # 108
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posted 10-23-2007 09:02 PM
quote:
Originally posted by TheBadLieutenant:
quote:
Originally posted by Brandon:
But that year Charles Woodson was mentioned in nearly every sportscenter broadcast, nearly all the college football radio shows, and Peyton was mentioned on the same shows but usually only when the topic was either the Heisman Trophy, The SEC, University of Tennessee or one of the teams they had played, or if a specific question was asked about him.
Not true. He was the face of college football that year and probably outnumbered Woodson 2:1 in references in the national media, especially leading up to the season.
quote:
Originally posted by Brandon:
Woodson had far more publicity generated by his Heisman campaign than Peyton did.
That's a pretty slippery statement. If you are saying Woodson had more publicity that season than Manning, then that is clearly wrong. I think you carefully avoided not saying that directly though.
Woodson beat Manning for one main reason: many voters vote for the best player on the best team, and that was clearly Woodson in his Heisman winning season. Again, if your previous statement that publicity, hype, coverage, national attention or any other media-created factor determined the winner, one of the most lopsided votes in the past twenty years would have been Peyton Manning's victory in his senior season.
Woodson had more publicity generated for him by Michigan than Peyton had generated for him by Tennessee. Believe it, don't believe it, whatever you want want to think. Some things are true whether you believe it or not.
You would have fit in will with Tigranes and his court.
[ 10-23-2007, 09:24 PM: Message edited by: Brandon ]
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Atlanta Cat Fan
Administrator
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posted 10-24-2007 10:38 AM
quote:
Originally posted by TampaKat:
Knoxville you and I got off on the wrong foot with the whole Tebow Woodson arguement, and I said Woodson would be a dud but in reality I think he is a very good QB, I just don't think he is as dominant in the college game as Tebow has been, but I hope you really don't want Tebow to get hurt as you state!!!!! No one deserves injury and the guy is a good guy, I don't think Tebow fans would say I hope Woodson gets sacked 40 times his rookie year and tears his ACL, Tebow is not saying he is Superman the media is, just my two cents on that!
I wouldn't wish a serious injury on anyone. However, if Tebow needs take a week off when they play UGA this weekend ala Florida's lucky break with DJ Shockley's injury a few years ago, then so be it! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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TheBadLieutenant
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posted 10-24-2007 02:27 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Brandon:
quote:
Originally posted by TheBadLieutenant:
quote:
Originally posted by Brandon:
But that year Charles Woodson was mentioned in nearly every sportscenter broadcast, nearly all the college football radio shows, and Peyton was mentioned on the same shows but usually only when the topic was either the Heisman Trophy, The SEC, University of Tennessee or one of the teams they had played, or if a specific question was asked about him.
Not true. He was the face of college football that year and probably outnumbered Woodson 2:1 in references in the national media, especially leading up to the season.
quote:
Originally posted by Brandon:
Woodson had far more publicity generated by his Heisman campaign than Peyton did.
That's a pretty slippery statement. If you are saying Woodson had more publicity that season than Manning, then that is clearly wrong. I think you carefully avoided not saying that directly though.
Woodson beat Manning for one main reason: many voters vote for the best player on the best team, and that was clearly Woodson in his Heisman winning season. Again, if your previous statement that publicity, hype, coverage, national attention or any other media-created factor determined the winner, one of the most lopsided votes in the past twenty years would have been Peyton Manning's victory in his senior season.
Woodson had more publicity generated for him by Michigan than Peyton had generated for him by Tennessee. Believe it, don't believe it, whatever you want want to think. Some things are true whether you believe it or not.
You would have fit in will with Tigranes and his court.
"generated for him by the school" and "more hype for the heisman" are ways to get around the fact that you and I both know that Peyton Manning was the number 1 media darling that season, period. And your initial point was that the person who fits that description wins the award, and you used Manning/Woodson as an example. That's clearly false. You realize it now, which is why you are trying to cling to point about how the school worked harder to win the award and how woodson's press was more directly focused on winning the award (which isn't true either, since about Manning everyone said all year "he came back to win the heisman").
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Brandon
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posted 10-24-2007 03:34 PM
Are you serious???
cling to a point...you are taking a point I made and twisting it to fit your agenda.
I have made my statement, 3 times now, and regardless of how you want to interpret what it says, the point of the whole thing is that the award doesn't always go to the best player, very often it goes to the most hyped player.
Sorry that you don't like those cherries you picked out of my post.
[ 10-24-2007, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: Brandon ]
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TheBadLieutenant
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posted 10-24-2007 07:42 PM
except that you are avoiding the fact that Manning was the most hyped player that year. saying anyone in college football was more hyped than him that year would be like saying golfer X is more hyped than Tiger.
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catmandoo
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posted 10-24-2007 08:59 PM
If you are looking for off the wall statements this statement is the clear winner:
"I'm just the opposite, prophet. I don't think Tebow should even be in the race."
Now Tebow might not win the race but i promise you he will be in it unless he has a unfortunate injury.
Woodson is a very good candidate also but unless the cats win out he probably hasn't got a chance. He will make it in the NFL and has the game to make it big...
[ 10-24-2007, 09:01 PM: Message edited by: catmandoo ]
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Brandon
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Member # 108
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posted 10-25-2007 08:44 AM
I just think that Tebow is an average QB. He's a tremendous football player, but not at the QB position. I'm just not impressed by him and his numbers are about what I would expect to see from any typical option QB. Not that Tebow is an option QB at Florida, but his numbers aren't unlike those of a typical, decent, option QB.
When I said he shouldn't be in the race, I should have added, "as a QB." That's just my opinion. I think Woodson and Perrilloux are better QB's than Tebow. Woodson being the better passer and decision maker, Perrilloux being the better athlete and ball carrier.
I think he's the 3rd best QB in the SEC. Hardly the stuff of a Heisman candidate.
Peyton's Heisman slogan: "Vote for Peyton because he's a lot better than Charles Woodson."
Perhaps I should rephrase. Michigan was the most hyped program in college football that season. Charles Woodson was the best player on that Michigan team. The hype that was bestowed on Michigan was done so primarily because of Charles Woodson. When anyone mentioned Michigan football, the talk almost always was about Woodson. During the Michigan games on TV, the announcers would say , "here comes Charles Woodson and the Michigan Wolverines"
Woodson has his own personal hype being bestowed on him from the media, he also had the hype of the Michigan programs success being directly attributed to him at his team. but it was Woodson, and the Michigan Wolverines in the media.
Peyton didn't have quite the same outpouring from the media in being tied to his schools success as much as Woodson did. Peyton loses to Florida, all the heisman hype went to Woodson.
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TheBadLieutenant
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posted 10-25-2007 08:59 AM
I agree with that. It was the product of the team's wins and losses more than the hype of the individual players that won it for Woodson.
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TampaKat
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posted 10-25-2007 09:06 AM
Tebow is not just a runner, he has thrown for 17 touchdown yes its not 29 like Woodson but Tebow has ran for 10 as well, he is not Eric Crouch, some Nebraska Option Runner, he is the real deal at QB, he has all the untangibles, he can run, throw the deep ball, throw an accurate ball, is tough, athletic, makes good decisions, throws very few picks and he is so good his team is always in the game, yes he has lost twice by a total of 6 points, on this one Brandon you are the minority thinking Tebow is the thrid best QB in the SEC, most of the country other than KY, BC, thinks he is the best in the country let alone the SEC, the Rookie from LSU being better thats plain silly! Perilleux fumbles, can not throw near as well as Tebow and is way more mistake prone. Tebow is a falt out college football stud at QB, I know you played football thats why I can't beleive you can't see how good he truly is. Bayers question was brought up on Sports talk radio this morning, first of all it was in Flordia as Norm would state but also the host is a former Hurricane football player he hates the Gators he said the Tebow Woodson comparison wasn't even close same thing I said, but Woodson should be number 2 with B.C. guy three, and that Mike Hart was no where on the Horizon, he did say though because a KY fan who also said Tebow was better, said that if you take away Tebow the Gators are probably 4-4 he said you take away Woodson the Kats are 0-8, so from a MVP standpoint you could argue Woodson is more valauble to UK than Tebow is to Florida but talent wise its the Kats versus High Point and Teow plays for the Kats!!!!!!
[ 10-25-2007, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: TampaKat ]
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Brandon
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posted 10-25-2007 09:30 AM
It's not his athletic ability that I question. It's his poise and decision making ability and really overall demeanor at the QB position that I'm not impressed with.
His numbers are an indicator of how talented he his but just watching him play, how he run the offense, how he executes plays, how he makes the decisions that he does, watching him in action, to me mind you, I'm just not convinced that he is a good QB. At least, not a good QB for the system that he's in at Florida. Watching the game, it looked like most of his decisions were knee jerk decisions. He just isn't fluid, he doesn't look in control and confident of what his game plan is, and he tends to run plays from the hip.
Now, if Urban Meyer if ok with that, then that's on him. Granted, Florida has had some success this season but they have also had some setbacks.
Look, like I said, I think Tebow is a great football player. I just think his talents could be better served in a different position. Especially if he wants to play at the next level.
And maybe I'm wrong, it happens, but that's just the way I feel about it. If Urban Meyer designed an offense that featured him more a a pocket or rollout passer and let the running backs do most of the running, I might have a different opinion about him. But as long as he's always the number 1 option, I don't think he's going to be as good as he could be.
Put it this way, if Tebow were at UK instead of Woodson, the Heisman would probably already be in the bag. Same if he were at South Carolina, Tennessee, or LSU. My knock against him really isn't against him personally, but rather how he's being utilized.
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