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Posted by m hamilton (Member # 127) on 10-22-2011, 02:25 PM:

Not me man! If my UNiversity is playing Tiddly Winks, and they are wearing, or representing the BLUE and WHITE.. I always cheer for a victory..

Like Coach Phillips or not, he's still our coach for now. THerefore we must support him..

It took Coach Brooks a few years to turn it around. Let's give the man a little time..

It's not like we are playing in the Big East Conf every week!!

Posted by Ron (Member # 2948) on 10-22-2011, 10:05 PM:

I'd never, ever root against our Cats.

Posted by catmandoo (Member # 1284) on 10-23-2011, 09:17 AM:

Great post MH, and if you note very few posts today after a solid win but you can bet when we lose our next SEC game, there will be a lot of posts saying whose son played bad and more fire the coach crap.

As far as Rich Brooks goes he was a fine man and a good coach but his first 3 years at Kentucky
were, 2003 Kentucky 4-8 2004 Kentucky 2-9
2005 Kentucky 3-8 for a 3 year total of 8 wins and 25 loses. The first thing Brooks did after that was to hire Joker as his recruiting coordinator and he brought in some good recruits so Brooks then promoted Joker to offensive coordinator for the 2005 season where the Cats turned it around from a 3-8 season to 8-5, 8-5, 7-6 seasons.

I'm with MH and Ron, how can anyone not cheer for the team they supposedly love. It just doesn't maske sense. Let's face it Kentucky is a basketball school and football it is not and never has been except for the Bryant years and a couple other good one time seasons and that was alot of years ago.

To get a name coach to come into the state of Kentucky with little to no football recruiting base would be a complete miracle no matter what you paid him. It's just not going to happen, again it's not going to happen. We are fortunate to have a coach from the state who truly loves Kentucky and lives and dies each game, he works his butt off and has got some great assistants like Tee Martin, Steve Brown, Rick Minter, Gary Nord and others. They just need time and a fan base that sticks with them rather than publically complain and stop showing up for games. What makes me the most upset is our fans are our own worst enemy and the Louisville fans are loving it.

[ 10-23-2011, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: catmandoo ]

Posted by Bama Cat (Member # 153) on 10-23-2011, 07:46 PM:

The above is a good explanation of the Brooks era. It shows how he went from nothing to something and made consecutive bowl appearances. So you would think that this would build the recruiting results but it appears it did not. The last year of Brooks and the first year of Joker our recruiting started slipping and it showed. So here we are headed back to the 2003-2005 years under Brooks. If recruiting had developed by the way we were improving and going to and winning bowl games we should be looking at a bowl this year a step up from playing in Nashville, Memphis or Birmingham. Instead we must pull a rabbit out of a hat to even make a bowl this year. This leads me to believe that without the right staff recruiting the right players we will always be riding this small roller coaster that barely makes it to a respectable level if you consider padding it with about 4 supposed patsies. I have to agree with those who say we will never have a very respectable string of good seasons. But
I'll still watch the games when I casn and when they don't interfere with basketball.

Posted by ukcatfannfl (Member # 1425) on 10-23-2011, 08:41 PM:

I agree that Coach Brooks worked hard to built us up to a (minor) bowl. It's not like Coach Joker came in with prior seasons of 2 and 3 wins like Brooks did. He had the past 5 yrs of several good wins - we should be going forward not backwards. So in my eye it's all about the coaching!! Joker got rid of a lot of Brooks staff and I think that is ONE big reason we are doing so bad.

I also believe in Joker and willing to give him more time (not that my opinion matters) but he needs to get this ship righted in a hurry and we revert back to "prior to Brooks era"!

I like all fans will watch them on tv and pull for a victory but in my mind the coaching has to share in the blame the latter part of last year and this year!

Posted by Bama Cat (Member # 153) on 10-23-2011, 08:53 PM:

I agree with your evaluation. The sad part is we have 2 options. We can sit back and cheer and hope that we get better some day. Or we can complain about never getting good enough to EVER compete in the SEC. I don't think it really matters whether we call for Jokers head. That decision is in the hands of Barnhart. I'm sure he'll give him next year even if we end up 3-9. He'll probably get at least 2 more years after this one so we can again do one of 2 things. We can sit back quietly and suffer or we can get all excited and voice our opinion and suffer. It's your option. [Frown]

Posted by Old Norm (Member # 1482) on 10-23-2011, 09:03 PM:

There is a difference between loyalty and blind faith. You can figure out for yourself which category you fall into.

Posted by kynut (Member # 2934) on 10-26-2011, 11:04 AM:

It is quite possible to root for a team while recognizing that the team is not headed in the right direction. I have pulled for UK for over 60 years but I still recognize that we are headed backwards again.

As long as Joker Phillips continues to try to play conventional smash mouth SEC football with the quality of players UK can recruit we are going to be SEC doormats just like we have been since Bear left.

To be competitive with two and three star athletes against four and five star athletes UK is going to have to use playing scheme as an equalizer.......specifically a spread offense (ala Hal Mumme/ Mike Leach) paired with a good aggressive defense. We are working on the defense but Joker is too stubborn to adapt his offense to the players he has and is able to get, so he is going to fail just like the previous 9 or 10 coaches have failed.

The only way UK will ever be as good as UK can be is to hire a big name spread option coach (preferably Mike Leach or one of his disciples) who will use the spread option as the talent equalizer it is, or convince Joker to hire a spead OC and make the switch.

kynut

Posted by Old Norm (Member # 1482) on 10-26-2011, 11:07 AM:

I LOVE common sense posts!

Posted by kynut (Member # 2934) on 10-26-2011, 11:24 AM:

The good news is that Mike Leach is available. During his two years as UK offensive coordinator his offense set 116 UK offensive records, 42 SEC offensive records, and 4 NCAA offensive records. His success continued at TTU (a school with the same recruiting problems UK has). Last Saturday his disciple OC at TTU beat mighty Oklahoma using the Leach/Mumme offensive system. Every UK fan needs to read Leach's book "Swing Your Sword" to gain an understanding of how scheme can be used to equalize talent.

Microwave Mitch has said Joker will be back next year which will be the biggest mistake UK has ever made in it's football history unless Joker is willing to adapt to the facts of modern football and totally changes his approach to offensive football. His pro set offense relies almost totally on having the best players and UK is never going to have the best players. This ain't Alabama and it ain't LSU with all the talent they get......it's UK and playing scheme is our only chance.

kynut

Posted by ukcatfannfl (Member # 1425) on 10-26-2011, 03:15 PM:

I have to agree with kynut - when Mumme was our coach he was fun to watch! Each game was exciting he just never had any talent on the defensive side nor did he even recruit any.

With a decent defense (like now) and a spread offense, we would be fun to watch and certainly better (record wise) than we are now!

If Joker stays then he needs to hire a good up and coming OC to implement something other than the pro set we are using or we will continue being what we have become - either the worse or next to worse team in the league!

Posted by Tiptree (Member # 844) on 10-26-2011, 04:30 PM:

While I love the idea of a spread or other offensive scheme that makes the defense cover the whole field, it strikes me that in the game of football, regardless of scheme, execution wins.

Stars assigned by recruiting geeks don't necessarily predict who can execute within a given offense -- see "Cobb, Randal, 2-star recruit" for reference. High star ratings mean you have talent, and perhaps freakish athleticism, but good, basic execution of basic plays should always gain some ground.

For example, in basketball, a well-executed pick-and-roll is almost unstoppable. It is a ridiculously simple play, and the defense knows that it is coming, but they cannot stop it if it is executed well. In football, the pro-set gives you plenty of plays that, if executed properly, WILL gain yards. I don't care how many stars are assigned to the defense facing you across the line of scrimmage, if you can do what you are assigned to do, and do it well, the play WILL succeed. Go back and watch film of the wishbone offense run by Bear Bryant's Bama teams. Nothing fancy, just a well-oiled machine doing a few simple plays with precision. Ditto for Hal Mumme's 'Air Raid' offense. Precision timing, great execution, and BINGO! SEC-record breaking offense with Kentucky-calibre recruits! It wasn't the scheme, it was the execution.

What we have today is very, very poor execution. Our offensive line isn't blocking well, our receivers can't catch perfect passes, and our QB isn't able to check off to second- and third-option receivers before the pocket collapses on him. Do you think any of that will change if we dropped the pro-set and went with a spread? Heck no. That is simply poor execution.

I think UK can succeed with the pro-set offense, but it will require a focus on detail and technique that seems to be sorely missing this year. Not sure why that is, but it is evident. Painfully evident.

Posted by kynut (Member # 2934) on 10-27-2011, 12:12 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tiptree:
While I love the idea of a spread or other offensive scheme that makes the defense cover the whole field, it strikes me that in the game of football, regardless of scheme, execution wins.

Stars assigned by recruiting geeks don't necessarily predict who can execute within a given offense -- see "Cobb, Randal, 2-star recruit" for reference. High star ratings mean you have talent, and perhaps freakish athleticism, but good, basic execution of basic plays should always gain some ground.

For example, in basketball, a well-executed pick-and-roll is almost unstoppable. It is a ridiculously simple play, and the defense knows that it is coming, but they cannot stop it if it is executed well. In football, the pro-set gives you plenty of plays that, if executed properly, WILL gain yards. I don't care how many stars are assigned to the defense facing you across the line of scrimmage, if you can do what you are assigned to do, and do it well, the play WILL succeed. Go back and watch film of the wishbone offense run by Bear Bryant's Bama teams. Nothing fancy, just a well-oiled machine doing a few simple plays with precision. Ditto for Hal Mumme's 'Air Raid' offense. Precision timing, great execution, and BINGO! SEC-record breaking offense with Kentucky-calibre recruits! It wasn't the scheme, it was the execution.

What we have today is very, very poor execution. Our offensive line isn't blocking well, our receivers can't catch perfect passes, and our QB isn't able to check off to second- and third-option receivers before the pocket collapses on him. Do you think any of that will change if we dropped the pro-set and went with a spread? Heck no. That is simply poor execution.

I think UK can succeed with the pro-set offense, but it will require a focus on detail and technique that seems to be sorely missing this year. Not sure why that is, but it is evident. Painfully evident.

Your point about execution is valid. However, if UK was playing LSU and both teams executed their best, which team would win the game? I think the answer is obvious. LSU's perfection would be far better than UK's perfection. Why is that? Because LSU has better players who can do more things better.

The pro set is an offense designed to safely utilize the talents of superior players. If UK's players were as good as everyone elses players then the pro set would be viable for us. The problem is, our talent is not as good as everyone elses, never has been, and never will be. So what do we do? The answer is obvious....we have to find a way to be competitive with the talent we can get. One good way to do that is to spread the field and use space as an ally. A spread offense forces the defense to defend considerably more field than the pro set. The spread uses space in a way that makes defenders have to travel a longer distance to make a play. The spread also creates natural running lanes by the use of wider line splits which also creates blocking angles for the offensive line. The spread also creates more one-on-one matchups. Mike Leach's book goes into detail on how the spread offense equalizes talent and I recommend it highly.

Thanks

kynut

[ 10-27-2011, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: kynut ]

Posted by Tiptree (Member # 844) on 10-27-2011, 05:03 PM:

Oh, I agree. The spread offense creates opportunities by making the defense cover more space. I really like the spread, so don't get me wrong. If Mike Leach would coach at Kentucky, the SEC would start quaking in their boots -- and I am being serious here!

What I am saying is that with our current level of execution, the spread would be of limited advantage. Recall the 'Air Raid' offense under Mumme. Now imagine our current offensive line, receivers, and QB playing in that system. Dropped passes would still be dropped. Missed blocking assignments would still be missed. And our QB would still be "locking on" to our primary receiver, come hell or high water.

Now, our current offense is generating opportunities, we just cannot turn them into yards gained. How many times have our receivers been wide open, and the pass hits them in the hands, in stride, and the pass was dropped?

Way too many.

How many times have we tried running to the corners, but our offensive line couldn't contain the pursuit?

Too many times.

How many times has our QB taken a sack instead of throwing the ball away?

Too many times.

Its all about execution. We would have won more games had we executed the pro offense correctly. Even against teams like LSU or Bama, if we execute well, we are at least competitive. THATS what Brooks brought to us -- a focus on execution. Not some six-sigma scheme. Simple, raw, execution. As it stands today, with much of the same players, we don't even threaten to cover the miserable 'spread' that Vegas comes up with, much less be able to effectively run a spread offense.

I do think that we would win even MORE games if we both executed well AND ran the spread. But, lets just worry about executing basic football first.

[ 10-27-2011, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: Tiptree ]

Posted by ukcatfannfl (Member # 1425) on 10-27-2011, 05:25 PM:

True - execution is one thing BUT you need the players to execute! We simply don't have them.

p.s. a bunch of 2/3 stars simply can not execute like 4/5 stars overall. Hence LSU/ALA vs KY/Vandy

Unless we get tricky we can't win. When is the last time we won 4 games in the sec in one season?

[ 10-27-2011, 05:28 PM: Message edited by: ukcatfannfl ]

Posted by catmandoo (Member # 1284) on 10-27-2011, 07:17 PM:

TT, I had to go back 34 years to find when we won 4 SEC games in a row. In fact we have only won 4 SEC games in a season 3 times since 1976 and if Vandy wasn't in the SEC we would have never won 4 games in a season in 34 years. It worked out that we have only averaged 2 SEC wins a year in the last 34 years.

ukfannfl (Ed) nailed it when he talked about the caliber of recruits. We are at a extreme disadvantage as very few 4 and 5 star recruits come out of Kentucky and the surrounding area. We are not known for football and it's hard for any Kenntucky coach to go into the south the hot bed of talented players and conveince them to play for the Cats. Some of our fans want to change coachs and hire a big name coach but what coach in his right mind would want to coach Kentucky football for what ever we paid him. We are starting to recruit more 3 and 4 star players than we have had for a long time and we just need to let them develope even if it takes a couple of years to mature and turn the program around or at least to respectability. The players respect Joker and his staff and will play hard for them. He deserves that chance and hopefully our fans will give Joker, the staff and the players that chance.

Posted by boomdaddy (Member # 2644) on 10-27-2011, 09:28 PM:

I don't buy that the divide is as big as some may think. The fact that the QB position is underacheiving is the major alarming factor in this season, especially after the head coach talked him up during the preseason.

Posted by kynut (Member # 2934) on 11-01-2011, 01:08 PM:

Who are these 4-star players we are recruiting? In a good year we get maybe one. Go to any of the recruiting service sites and you will find UK at or near the bottom of the SEC....not just this year but every year.....throughout the tenure of 9 different coaches including Joker. We have to be awfully slow learners to not realize by now that we can't compete for top recruits.

Sure, execution is important but has anyone stopped to consider that our two and three star players are executing about as well as two and three star players can execute, especially when playing against four and five star athletes?

Thinking that we are going to vastly improve our recruiting is sheer nonsense....it ain't gonna happen! That being the case we have two choices, (1) Be satisfied to be the SEC doormat for another half-century or (2) Find a way to compete with the talent we can get. That's why I say we need to bring in a coach that can run an unconventional system that uses space and the width of the field as a talent equalizer. That's what Boise is doing....that's what Texas Tech is doing, and that is what Oregon is doing....and it's working for them. To continue on the path we have been on for most of 60 years and are still presently on is sheer insanity.!

Just my humble opinion.

kynut

[ 11-01-2011, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: kynut ]

Posted by boomdaddy (Member # 2644) on 11-02-2011, 01:40 PM:

If I am not mistaken, the two QB that Joker recruited, Moss and Newton were supposed to be the best of the recruiting class. We all know how that is working out. I believe Newton was a four star and Moss a five.

Posted by Atlanta Cat Fan (Member # 1746) on 11-03-2011, 05:16 PM:

I would be curious to see if UK would ever be willing to consider a triple option system like Georgia Tech runs. It could be an alternative to the spread that could be a difference maker as far as scheme. I have been pretty impressed seeing what Tech has done with their level of recruiting since Johnson came on board with them.